The Future Of Java

Java’s future will be constrained by the bounds of Oracle's business model.

Drama has been running high since Oracle began to shape up the Java technology it acquired along with Sun Microsystems. Oracle ended the impasse over a new core Java release, set out a road map for the next two years, and began reorganizing Java's ineffectual governance. Oracle's Java road map and commitment to invest reassured enterprise customers and prevented a split with IBM but alienated many in the open source community. But Oracle's plans so far fail to address Java platforms' inherent complexity, which remains Java's Achilles' heel in head-to-head competition with Microsoft's.NET platform. Moreover, a controlled, top-down innovation model will limit Java's role as the basis for the "cloud" generation of platforms, rich Internet applications, and new development techniques ranging from languages such as Ruby to approaches such as business process management (BPM) and business rules. Conclusion: Java's future in the enterprise is alive and well but limited.

Oracle’s strategy for Java will change the Java ecosystem that has existed for 11 years.

  • Oracle will direct Java innovation. Oracle has made it clear that from this point forward, it will direct all innovation in core Java (Java SE). Oracle will happily accept the contributions of others through OpenJDK as long as those contributions align with Oracle's priorities.
  • OpenJDK is not fully open. OpenJDK is covered by a General Public License (GPL), and though it's certainly true that there are alternative JVM implementations and derivatives out there, OpenJDK is not open in spirit: It's practically impossible to distribute an alternative implementation without Oracle's sanction — specifically without a grant of the Java TCK. Losing The Apache Software Foundation as a supporter also hurts Oracle's credibility as a partner with the Java alpha geeks who drive so much independent and discontinuous Java innovation. Those developers will take their energy elsewhere, probably to Apache projects.
  • The JCP is dying. The Java Community Process remains in place, but we believe that Oracle will formulate an alternative that ends the fiction of JCP as an open process and streamlines the process of Java platform evolution. The result will be total domination of Java's evolution by Oracle and IBM.
  • Competition will shift to frameworks. With Oracle directing innovation at Java's core, others in the Java ecosystem will focus on higher-level frameworks. This shift began years ago, but we now expect it to intensify. We expect most of the work on frameworks to focus on the enterprise, as that is clearly Oracle and its core partners' focus with Java.
  • Fewer young developers will learn Java first. One of Java's greatest strengths has been the number of young developers who learn it as a first language. As Java becomes less and less of a client-side language, we expect to see educational institutions switch to other languages for primary education, ones with stronger client-side representation such as JavaScript and HTML 5. Over time, developers will begin to view Java as a server-side language for enterprises — like COBOL.

These ecosystem changes will have minimal immediate impact on customers. Java SE 7 and 8 will move forward, driven by the strong consensus among Oracle's partners about the content of those releases. Customers will see predictable and stable enhancements of enterprise Java middleware. But Oracle and its close Java partners are in a classic "innovator's dilemma." It may take a decade, but the bottom-up innovation the open source community drives will find expression elsewhere, and smaller companies that Java's high-end capabilities do not serve well will gravitate toward a new "good enough" open platform — likely based on a combination of LAMP and HTML 5 open standards.

Jeffrey Hammond and I collaborated on this research. See the full report at this link.

Comments

I agree

My first programming language I learnt was C. The fundamental of C was neither easy nor hard.

Now I have some interests in Ada although many people say it's ugly. Feeling is human problem. Everyone has different feeling towards different things.

ADA might look ugly, but

ADA might look ugly, but internally, it's how languages ought to have been. Plus, it has set the path for many of the current modern languages.

Does HMTL have Constants,

Does HMTL have Constants, Variables, User-Defined Data Types, User-defined Objects, conditional logic structures, iterative structures, robust debug set points, api integration and the like? I must have missed that!

First language learned 30

First language learned 30 years ago - BASIC (high school). Then Pascal(college Comp Sci). Then C and Modula-2 (grad school Comp Sci). In the workforce I transitioned from C to C++ to Java in the 1990s and have been doing Java since 1999.

What this article didn't discuss is where the jobs are. Java may even be slowing in the area, but it is still probably the biggest job generator of all the programming languages. Ten years ago it was new development on the server side, today Java jobs primarily involve maintenance of legacy apps on the server side. For years people have been saying Java is the new COBOL (or COBOL of the 21st Century), and there is nothing wrong with that. I could probably finish the rest of my career as a Java programmer - there are always new frameworks being built for the language for server side web application development. Also I'm not even close to using the latest version. I've been stuck on Java 1.4 since 2003.

No shortage of Java jobs

No shortage of Java jobs according to this article. Regardless of the whatever direction Oracle takes Java, programming jobs in Java will continue to have momentum.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/12/prweb4963464...

Good short analysis

Lots of great points in here. Sure Java won't being seeing the end of days for a long time but the moves by Oracle turn it more into a .NET-like ecosystem than it's more open standards past. Agree that frameworks are becoming key. The rise of Rails for the Ruby language and the centering around Django for Python points to clear clear gains with dynamic languages + frameworks.

Expect these frameworks to continue grow in importance and to reach out much further than MVC. You'll see tighter coupling with cloud infrastructures (ala Heroku), with API-driven services, language compute clouds, cloud-based worker systems, and more.

Languages don't die but they do loose momentum. Especially if younger developers pick up something different. Yes, Javascript and HTML5 will be big. The web experience will change because of HTML5 but alongside it in the client and on the server side will still need to be dynamic languages and frameworks such Ruby on Rails and Python/Django. These will be the languages that the all cool kids will be picking up. Python because of Google's push. Ruby because of its Web 2.0 pedigree and tight enthusiastic community.

Using Python and Ruby for the

Using Python and Ruby for the web is akin to smoking in the 80s (cool smokers)...eventually, the "cool" kids will see how that particular language stinks.
Why? Python is a bicycle made into a Mercedes while ruby is maintainer's nightmare.

Oh, and for what it's worth, although banks and other e-commerce systems seem to have switched to java a long time ago, the flaws caused by simply using java are innumerable.

Been developing stuff for gateways for quite some time now. It's outright depressing discovering the flaws caused by the use of java in the gateway compared to the time I've lost ensuring that my code is up to specs.

I think there are some valid

I think there are some valid points on both sides. I always feel that Microsoft makes the hard easy and the easy hard. Java seems to be the reverse. I am technology manager and i have been in application development for many years. I come across many weaknesses on both sides as I have programmed in Java and .Net. Java has definitely been getting weaker on the desktop. This has been something known for quite some time. Oracle's start is not good especially in the law suit with Google. Looks like they just want a piece of the pie in whatever they control. Open source or not. Would they throw such a big stink if Android was a failure? Absolutely not. The future is NOT HTML 5 and Javascript. It kills me to see so many things shifting to using those two as the basis of client development. There are many flaws especially when it comes to UI development, offline execution, and threading. Google tried offline use of apps with Google Gears, but it has not been very successful. The HTML5/Javascript UI development is weak because there are no rich set of controls. Especially when it comes to editable grids and modal dialogs. (Yes, there are javascript modal dialogs, but those implementations are very ghetto) There are many component suites available, but they always come up short in some way or another. There needs to be capabilities and controls such as the ones found in Silverlight and Flex. So, in the end we need a runtime to be included that could be executed in the browser in order to provide that functionality. Java has slipped in this category because of the chaos between JavaFX, Swing, and SwingX. It looks like things may have been corrected with the upcoming 2.0 version of JavaFX. We will have to wait and see. For those of you who say that there is no Java version of Linq -- Please research Hibernate and Oracle Toplink. Those are libraries that use data abstraction through objects. The only thing I truly care about when it comes to Java technology is Glassfish. I feel like it's an awesome piece of technology and I have a major application currently being developed that resides on restful services through Glassfish using Toplink. I guess I will have to wait to see what the outcome of it's future, but it will be hard to replace. Those of you worried about MySQL --- PostgreSQL.

Java on the desktop getting better...

"Java has definitely been getting weaker on the desktop. This has been something known for quite some time. "

Have you run any desktop Java apps lately? I use jEdit for programming, Vuze and JDdownloader, Art of Illusion (3D rendering) http://t.co/scQsqhj ,EKit for simple text editing, JShot for screen captures (great use of Java Web Start) http://ho.io/JShot

The beauty of running the same binary apps regardless if I´m sitting in front of a Windows or Linux machine is something that no other technology can beat. No ports, no de-synced version numbers... the way all software should be written.

The benefits happen with properly written Java ME apps... like Google´s GMail client for Java-enabled smartphones ( http://ho.io/GMail4Java ), which I run on my PalmOS phone (unsupported config, thanks to IBM dropping the ball on PalmOS support), and my latest Java ME enabled Chinese Blackberry look-alike...

Almost every Chinese smartphone today comes with Java ME as the standard .... of course this gets largely unreported by the US IT press, obsessed with the iPhone...

And look, who announced a Java ME app to reach millions of smartphones at once... Facebook...

New Official Facebook App Supports 2500 Java Phones
http://www.mobilegyaan.com/facebook-app-download

Rumors about the impending demise or non-relevance of Java are greatly exaggerated....
FC

Perhaps you wouldn´t have got

Perhaps you wouldn´t have got so many negative comments if you had not started with FUD.

"Java’s future will be constrained by the bounds of Oracle's business model."

is just FUD... Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. The same could be said of every other product whose direction is controlled by a corporation:

"Mac OSX´s future will be constrained by the bounds of Apple´s business model"

"Suse´s future will be constrained by the bounds of Novell´s business model"

"Windows future will be constrained by the bounds of Microsoft´s business model"

But did you write any reports expressing the above statements? or is it part of the wave of irrational anti-Oracle hysteria we´ve seen in the press during the last year?. (most of which predicting the impending demise of a variety of Sun technologies by the evil, evil Oracle, that turned out never happening).

Which product is not "constrained" by the decisions of a a given corporation who markets it? Even if it´s a Linux distributor that selects which desktop to use (see the controversy surrounding Canonical´s decision to go with Unity instead os Gnome as its default interface).

FC

C# vs Java

Well,

I write in C# on FreeBSD today. C# (Mono) is as cross platform as Java.

Since Windows Developers prefer .NET, it won't be long before these C# apps are running on Linux and the few that were writing java apps for cross platform reasons will no longer do so.

The .NET framework will outlive the java framework. Even if the open source community prefers java over .NET, the business apps will start seeing the cost savings of migrating to another platform using C# (Mono) and once that happens, mono will become as standard as /bin/sh on Mac and Linux and BSD.

Java will live a long time, but it will start to trail off and its usage will slowly dwindle. Look for C# to be the language of the future on all platforms for applications and web development.

C++ will continue to live for OS, Drivers, etc...

Jared
http://www.rhyous.com

The Bigger Picture

Those are very interesting comments and it is obvious you are a C#/.NET lover but here are the facts. BIG businesses will NEVER trust a Microsoft product to run their businesses. When I talk about Big Business, I am referring to banks, insurance companies, etc. Microsoft products cost to much, have too many security issues, and do not perform as well as other technologies to warrant these businesses to switch. Mainframes, Unix machines, and Linux machines are much more secure and perform a lot better than Microsoft. Sure, you will go into one of these offices and see Windows 7 at workstations. Sure, you will see forward facing websites from these companies running .ASPX. But, when it comes down to back-end processes and the internal core business, C# will never be used with these companies when they have invested so much in the technologies that they currently have. Why would any smart business spend all kinds of money to re-write all of there apps just so that they can say that they are running .NET?

These types of business are why COBOL is still around today. It is also why Java will be around a lot longer than anyone thinks.

Never say never. My company

Never say never. My company works in the Banking and Financial Sector supporting financial institutions and we just completed an exercise to re-examine all of our platforms and chose Windows Azure as our platform moving forward. The Reliability, Scalability, Security, Enterprise Readiness and Value were unmatched by anything in the industry. Additionally, their platform made it easy for us to be SAS 70 compliant, FFEIC compliant and our Banking customers are thrilled. They see the same shift toward enterprise ready cloud computing platforms that our company sees.

The old model of antiquated hosting environments, goopy frameworks, overpaid religious zealots may soon be changing.....question is, will you hold to your religion, or will you get on board the new movement? The choice is yours.

Unix

How well does it run on enterprise level Unix servers? Telecommunications is almost universally run on Unix servers. How does Windows Azure fare there?

Your post is an utter joke. Azure will be the dominant "new movement" to "get on board" only if half of the business environment disappears leaving only Windows servers.

Buy "enterprise unix", you

Buy "enterprise unix", you mean to say the one that runs the stock exchange 16bit software?

I'm sure I'm not alone to be unimpressed with "enterprise level unix".

No

"Buy" enterprise Unix, I don't mean 16 bit machines, no. Whether or not enterprise Unix "impresses" you or not is irrelevant - it exists.

You're also incredibly misinformed if 16 bit servers is your idea of what enterprise unix servers is about. They've had multi-cpu, multi-core, hot-swapable hardware (drives, IO devices, CPUs, memory) for decades.

If you're ignorant about a subject, it's best to just say nothing at all.

Since it didn't occur to you,

Since it didn't occur to you, I was pointing out that "enterprise unix" is as much of a great description as "enterprise amigaos" :- none.

No

No you weren't.

You gave an concrete example of Enterprise UNIX as some 16bit server and you said that you weren't impressed with it. Claiming now that you mean that "Enterprise UNIX" is a meaningless term is clear revisionism (after your initial assertions were shown to be false) and is completely at odds with what you posted.

My post was that Azure doesn't run on Unix and that Unix exists in many enterprise contexts. Do you ACTUALLY have an argument against that, or are you just going to continue spouting rhetoric?

So far you only came up with

So far you only came up with meaningless statements, 3 of them in fact;
"Telecommunications is almost universally run on Unix servers."

Other than the fact that that is false in its context, I can't see your point besides attempting to praise unix while arguing a platform which doesn't run a legacy system.

In fact, "enterprise unix" is getting less and less prevalent, mostly used to host older systems, such as the ancient NYSET software.

Unless by "enterprise unix"

Unless by "enterprise unix" you somehow incorporated "linux and derivatives"? In which case, I would agree.

Telecommunications is almost

Telecommunications is almost all Unix. Virtually no-one runs Microsoft servers there. You claim to know otherwise, but actually working in that field has shown me that this is the case.

I wasn't meaning Linux also, but sure - include Linux and the point about MS Azure is stronger still. The London Stock Exchange just switched to Linux. MS doesn't run there.

Are those the banks that when

Are those the banks that when you try to do online banking many times the website is non-responsive because a involved-windows server is rebooting to apply a security patch?

Yes, you're right... wait a minute... no you're not

"C# (Mono) is as cross platform as Java."

No, it isn't. The language and the compiler are. But the libraries and frameworks aren't. Wake me up when Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF) was available on Mono: http://www.mono-project.com/WPF

"At this point, no group in the Mono project has plans to implement Windows Presentation Foundation APIs as part of the project.

We do not have any plans because the project is too large and there has not been any serious interest from the community to make this effort move forward.

Some bits have been implemented for WindowsBase and they are distributed with Mono (mostly because System.IO.Packaging is part of WindowsBase). Various classes and stubs were developed and live in the Olive module."

If a tree falls in a

If a tree falls in a Forrester and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Who cares what these people say...

Very interesting

I find it very interesting how everyone is getting emotional when someone says there is gloom and doom about java but let’s look at some facts. I am a Sr. Software Engineer and I have both .NET and Java on my resume. I probably have more .NET than java listed on my resume. For every .NET inquiry that I get, I get 10 Java inquiries. Why? Because, of where the need is. I live in a place where there are a lot of government institutions. They want and need enterprise development and they are not going to be tied to a Microsoft contract to do it. These agencies have spent a lot of money on Mainframes, Minicomputers, iSeries and Unix boxes and guess what, they do not run windows. I do not hate Microsoft or .NET but I think everyone has to realize that the .NET platform is based on whatever the Windows OS does. Java and other Programming Languages do not have this restriction. Java will not die anytime soon.

The thing that is killing me about this article is that it is basically saying that Java is no longer “open source” and it is being controlled by Oracle and IBM. Well, .NET has NEVER been open source and is completely controlled by one entity (Microsoft). The SDK is still in good hands.

Ignorance: “Heck, the Java SDK still doesn't even support multicore programming, or a LINQ type language feature.” - The SDK does support mult-icore programming. LINQ is not that great of a feature. I can name a thousand features that Java has that are better than other languages (the collections framework blows .NET away).

I will just leave everyone with this thought about Java dying. Everyone has said that COBOL will die. It is still around and will not go anywhere (contrary to popular opinion). Java will be around just like Object C and C++ have been hanging around since the 80’s. The .NET people have to hope that each successive Window OS is a successful release or they are going to be looking for work :D

We did not say Java is dying, just the JCP

We are not saying Java is dying!

But we are saying that it taking a different path - back toward the Cathedral where at one time it was moving toward the Bazaar. This could be good or bad, but it's a new path and means certain outcomes are more likely to happen if you believe that Oracle's past behavior is a reasonable predictor of their future behavior.

The change revolves around how future innovations will happen. There's directed innovation and spontaneous innovation-both are good, but they happen differently. For example, if you wrote a Java app, could you sell it in the new Mac App store? Doesn't look like it from what I can tell - but that's Apple's call - directed innovation. Good from their perspective - they are creating a certain "experience" for their customers, but maybe not so good from a developer's perspective. If the JVM were fully open, other companies could take it, modify it to suit their needs and make it sing on a mobile device or in the clouds....no permission needed. That's not where I think we are now.

You're also right that .NET has never come out of the Cathedral, and that's neither good nor bad - it just is. .NET's future is constrained by Microsoft's business model.

I'm sure that there will continue to be strong demand for Java devs, just like there is also strong demand for Objective C developers, and Python and Ruby devs. In fact, there's still pretty strong demand for COBOL developers given the average age in our surveys and the available base.

The points we are trying to make are subtle - not sensational.

Interesting. I have

Interesting. I have contracted at 5 state projects and 1 federal project. I know for a fact that two of the largest states use exclusively .NET for their projects. One state is 70% .NET, and one state is 50% .NET. The state I live in is mainly J2EE, and the feds project was .NET with Flex (don't ask).

By the way, the statement above will need to be prefaced by the fact that all of these states have a large mainframe presence still so COBOL is king but when it comes to "newer" languages, the breakdown is correct.

The point is I do not understand where you're getting your data from.

Java Applets would be popular

Java Applets would be popular today if Sun had better executed the JRE. I remember back in the 90's, the JRE was more than 10MB, which was a big download for dialup. On the other hand, Flash was a little over 1MB, and there was great content for it. I don't think I ever downloaded and installed the JRE; I only installed if it came on an AOL CD or on a CD from a Java book. On top of that, the user experience wasn't good; for example, while waiting for an Applet to load, you would see a gray box, and user would wonder what's going and refresh or close the page. Installing it wasn't easy either. Flash had, and still has, a better user experience. Now, Adobe distributes the AS3 compiler (which is written in Java!) for free for creating Flash programs. When I heard of JavaFX, I had high hopes, but I saw that it still required the JRE.

Dear Java

Dear Java,

I loved you for a long time but now it seems that you are all baggage and no traveller. I don't like these people that you're hanging around with and, anyway, I've found someone who looks like you but is much younger and better dressed. No hard feelings.

Give my regards to COBOL.

Java on the client

I think you are missing the point that Browser and HTML 5 are becoming the universal client. The way Java operates in this landscape is through the multitude of web frameworks - that provide every conceivable solution use case.

GWT/ GXT - Google Web Toolkit - fully AJAX clients that fully reside within the browser - which easily compete with rich desktop apps.

Echo 3/Wicket/ Vadim - FUlly AJAXed apps controlled on the serverside.

JSF (Richfaces/Icefaces) - Heavilly Ajaxed apps controlled on the serverside.

On the desktop front, JFC/ Swing apps are any day better than windows native apps.

On the smart phone front - Android has made its mark.

On the tradition cell phone - J2ME has always been the king.

Tablet - Again Androd tablets are making their presence felt.

I am really not sure what your basis are in announcing the decline of Java on the client in any way?

And on the server, you say it is limited future. Are you sure? Since when did Microsoft C# start running on Unix or Linux. Java is the only enterprise platform that is able to provide a complete stack on the serverside. There is nothing even closer, as far as I can tell. Can you please name the server platform stack that competes with Java on the server side or is likely to replace java?

The problems with Oracle may have some basis but Java is strong as a platform and lacks viable competition.

Thanks.

Correction

JavaScript and HTML 5 can't be options for students learning a new languages. First, because HTML is not a programming language, and second, because Javascript lacks of many core elements that come in traditional languages which are fundamental when teaching software design and development. I'd go for Python.

"Controlled, top-down

"Controlled, top-down innovation model?" This is much more true of .NET. .NET evolutions are only driven by Microsoft, nobody knows anything on what Microsoft is planning on .NET before Microsoft choose to present what they plan to do. No discussion is possible, you just have to accept what will be coming next.

On the contrary, there are always been a lot of discussions from the Java community on what needs to be included in the next java versions; I think that nowadays the OpenJDK community is much more relevant than JCP. I don't know where is the top-down innovation model there. OpenJDK 7 evolutions were driven a lot from community discussions.

Not mentioning OpenJDK in this post is showing the reality in a distorted way. And about Apache Harmony, it's a dying project. If you look at the developer mailing list volume, you will see that the golden age of Harmony was in 2006, were there was more than 1000 posts a :month. Then it slowly began to decrease. In 2010 it was painfully 10 times less, and 2011 is not showing better. Apple is now working on OpenJDK, and IBM too, there's just Google now, and the development model of Android is not open at all.

Indeed

This assertion that Oracle's control will stifle Java is amusing. Has Apple stifled Objective C or Microsoft stifled C#? These companies have wielded *far* more control over their development environments that Oracle/Sun and yet, amazingly, their technology is still being used.

my humble Java realities

We must understand that OpenJDK need not be a full democracy as ASF, its presence released under GPL is an assurance that a full-spec JDK is always available for any participant of this wonderful ecosystem.

We must also understand that ASF without its seat in the JCP may be a loss to the directing of the Java specification, but NOT its continued contribution to the Java platform.

Either way, the JCP needs to reform dramatically.
Total domination of Java's evolution by Oracle and IBM? as compared to the domination by large vendors and product shops? what we need are more groups like SouJava and small vendors given an equal say.

Competition will shift to not the frameworks, but a large number of high-performing(scala), dynamic(groovy) and functional(clojure) dialects of Java.

"Fewer young developers will learn Java first", but the better developers will choose Java more than any other of the riff-raff
btw, I take Java as the COBOL. server-side language as a great compliment for a language that was originally meant for desktops and embedded devices.

Lastly, there's no contest between Java and HTML5 if you understand these underlying technologies... granted Java has been sloppy in helping developers quickly enter the Web arena, allowing good programmers to get swayed into using LAMP as a quick and dirty solution -- and this, a big challenge to Java 7 & 8.

Also I'm a little fed-up of

Also I'm a little fed-up of always hearing about web development. web development is not the alpha and omega of programming. If I look at the software projects currently active at my company, and others I work with, there are a LOT less web development projects than client-only or "traditional" client-server development, without a browser.

And I don't think that Rich internet applications usage will continue to grow. AppStores are working on a new paradigm, and it is funny that no analyst has mentioned this: they are native applications, and they don't really work in a client-server model, because they usually work very well without the server available. This does not mean that internet usage will decline, just that it's much more easier to have a rich internet application if it's not an internet application ;)

Alternatives

If someone tells me that .NET is an alternative to JAVA, then I would tend to disagree. Not because .NET competes with JAVA, but that fact that it is just another java clone. I would consider a language an alternative when it implements an alternative paradigm to Object Oriented development. However, there don't seem to be such paradigms on the horizon and that leads me to believe that minor variation to Java is all we are going to see. Such alternatives are personal choice and don't really deserve much coverage.

Alternatives (correction)

By .NET above I meant C# really.

Believe me when I tell you I

Believe me when I tell you I strongly dislike .NET (as well as Java for the matter), however, give .NET a try.
I've used Java for some time, can't say I'm a Java expert, but neither a beginner. Point is, .NET isn't just a Java clone, it's worth a look, trust me.
The people that did .NET knew what they were doing, I can vouch for that because I've been in touch with them, as well as tried their stuff before.

Alternatives

Let us stay with the issue. Minor syntax differences between languages don't deserve coverage and noise like this one.

Is there a more advanced paradigm to OO and AOP available that is going to change the landscape of software development?

That is the kind of Analysis that is required. That is what will kill Java (unless that is built on the top of Java).

Minor syntax in languages?

Minor syntax in languages? .NET is nothing like Java. The idea behind Java was cross-platform code, while .NET is based on the RAD approach.

Your call for an advanced paradigm to OO shows your lack of knowledge (or experience?) in the issue.

What else can anyone want after building enterprise-class applications which depend and work on high quality databases, under a few *minutes*?

OO is just one of the pillars in making this possible...

The point was C# has only

The point was C# has only minor syntactic enhancements to Java.

There's two separate but related questions - one being platform, the other language. It's possible another JVM language like Scala or JRuby could could surpass Java, although I really don't see very wide excitement or momentum for those or others. They seem more like niche solutions.

And my point was that the

And my point was that the difference between C# and Java is not just a "minor syntactic difference", the whole approach is different. As I said, .NET's OO is truly RAD, whereas Java's not so much.
You simply can't drag & drop a listbox component into a java box, set a few properties and make an application that gets data from DB, without even touching code. You can with C#.

This is not related to C#

That you can drag and drop a component to another to make an application that gets data from DB is related to Visual Studio, not C# You have similar capabilities in Eclipse or Netbeans plugins, this does not make C# different.

I've always argued that the

I've always argued that the IDE is half the language's capability.
That said, this particular feature we're talking about is highly dependent on the language, since certain features can't be easily replicated.
Oh, and for the record, there's no such functionality in either Eclipse or Netbeans.

Yes there are

Don't know why you even took

Don't know why you even took time to reply, since that doesn't even come close to what I was talking about...

I don't think it's a function

I don't think it's a function of the language at all. It's a function of Visual Studio and its tight integration with the CLR and Windows, not to mention that it's simply a far superior tool to NetBeans or Eclipse. Microsoft had drag and drop GUI creation in Visual Studio in the early 90's with C++ as the language and it was really advanced. Creating cross-platform GUI's is far more difficult. Swing does a pretty decent job. Microsoft has never entered the ring.

Don't make us guess then!

Don't make us guess then! What were you exactly talking about? Don't make general statements. Give concrete examples.

Don't try to look dub for

Don't try to look dub for your advantage. I explained myself earlier, just go back and read it.

If someone confused everything up doesn't invalidate my argument.

EOF

*dumb.

This is the end about it, since it's a complete waste of time explaining two completely different ideas to some people that effectively never used either (or not experienced enough to know the difference).